More Murder/Just More Meat

Following on from Mr Torr, for those of you following the links.

1.
We need a clearer idea of what it means to be cruel.

`Trevor massively underestimates the cruelty widespread in factory farming.Giving up veal is great but most factory farming involves a similar level of cruelty'.

Really? Explain further?

2.
I need to understand further the criteria for moral status? I don't think there is a clear answer. I would guess we should also place a greater weight on capacity for pain than intelligence. Although I am not sure either should make death more of a problem? Is killing any life bad? Is killing a life that must suffer to die bad? Is killing intelligent life bad? People do disapprove of cow torture, but a cow living a happy life and then being painlessly killed for meat? Problem?

3.

`What is it that gives humans moral status?'

I think `morals' develop and `moral status' changes, but if by this question you mean why is it not ok to kill other people? Well, the most convincing argument I have heard is that it is right not to kill if you want that obligation to be placed on others. If you don't mind people trying to kill you, then killing becomes more acceptable... as in the case of war.

4.

`We're very comfortable with giving different humans different rights.'

Rights and Obligations go hand in hand. I believe rights flow from obligations. I need someone to be obligated not to kill me, so they receive the right not to be killed. (I don't like this as I write it because someone will twist my words in a death penalty argument.) Not many animals can be obligated to do something. Not sure where I am going here, but the seed is there. Most rights are there in my mind to make society function optimally.

5.
Yes I agree that because things happen in nature doesn't mean we need to replicate them, but we need some sort of foundation for deciding why not. I don't think it would be great to run up to a buck and rips its throat out with my teeth. Farming is normally done in a more humane way? If not we can do it in a more humane way. In other words we can reduce pain and suffering to an absolute minimum. The suffering seems wrong, the death doesn't.

6.

`Surely you want to claim that we're different.'

Yes.

7.
I must admit that I have a very poor understanding of why vegetarians don't eat meat.

8.
The arguments I have heard haven't been very convincing.

9. My default position is that of eating meat. I have changed lots of my basic beliefs so his may change, but I will happily carry on until I find an argument that is strong enough to warrant a `pause' till I can fully work through the arguments and make up my mind.