Monday, January 21, 2019

Getting Better

Rachel:
I don't really understand the fuss that was made about the Gillette advert. It simply says we shouldn't treat each other badly. It shows a particular brand of fragility that so many people have pushed back on it. They accuse us of being Snowflakes, and then they are so easily triggered by a polite request to be better. I like it when companies use their platforms for good. Like this, and the Nike adverts and the Nandos adverts. It certainly beats the American ads which are half disclaimers about how the drugs they are selling will make bits of your body fall off.


Tracy:
I didn't like the ad. I find it worrying that Social Movements can be so easily co-opted by Corporates and trivialized. This is a difficult conversation that needs having. It feels similar to the American division in News Media. Years ago, everyone would have watched the same channel and had a view. Now each side gets different facts and reacts. Companies now seem to be picking sides. Even though I agree with you that which 'side' seems obvious here. I also worry that this ad makes out as if the issue is important because it affects men too. We can't deal with #MeToo without saying #ToxicMasculinity harms men.

Peter:
I didn't like the ad for the reasons Rachel says... but am one of those reverse-Snow Flakes if that is the binary choice. It's all just a bit too much, to be honest. All this stuff about Privilege and blah, blah, blah. I get it, but isn't there a time limit on that? Can't people start taking some responsibility for sorting their own stuff out? I really think Jordan Peterson is nailing it. What is wrong with being the traditional male? Without being a dick. Having muscles and enjoying a barbecue isn't toxic. Messing around on the playground is how you learn resilience in a world that isn't fair. A world that isn't safe. It is not just Peterson who makes sense in this space. It isn't a Right-wing push back. If you look at some of the work of David Deida, and others in the spiritual space, having a balance between Masculine and Feminine energies is important. We can't all just have a cry about it when life gets hard. Someone has to provide the backbone. Even if it is the Woman that Mans up.

Michelle:
It's all about choice. I have read some of the Deida stuff and it makes me cringe just as much as the Peterson work. I think the Male/Female divide is lazy. It is how we have always done it, and there are certainly strengths and weaknesses we associate we men and women, but aren't there other words?  The word 'Bridge' is feminine in German, and masculine in Spanish (strong, sturdy, towering). Even when speaking English, German speakers will tend to describe Bridges using feminine adjectives (beautiful, elegant, fragile) and Spanish speakers will use masculine ones (sturdy, strong, towering). We get so deep soaked in expectations that it isn't really a choice. We are making progress on women making "masculine" choices, but boys are still restricted from making "feminine" choices and expected to adhere to positive masculine requirements - strength, provision, stoicism.  


Arno:
There are some hard discussions. In the past there was a play book. Rather, there were playbooks. Everything is now up for discussion, and the world has profoundly changed. 200 years ago, most children died before their fifth birthday. We were mostly poor farmers. We have gone through an industrial revolution where most of us were workers, and then in rich countries we have gradually moved out of our bodies and into our heads.  The playbook has been burned. Most of us grew up in sexually repressed religious cultures that were sexist, homophobic, racist, and xenophobic. You don't need to look further than previous generations to get your cringe on. Maybe we should all just cut each other a little slack and figure this mess out.

Rachel:
Isn't it simpler than that though? We do tolerate negative behaviour from men. We do live in a world where women are fearful, because that is completely rational. They should be scared. We do live in a patriarchal world where there is a pay-gap, and woman are restricted from progressing in the work place in the way men are. Even if on paper they are "allowed", culturally woman are expected to work as if they aren't mothers, and be mothers as if they don't work. Expected to thrive in a male world, while still being feminine. This push back strikes me as a lack of willingness to change that.

Tracy:
There is an element of whataboutism going on here. As Rachel says, there may be other issues but that constantly brings the discussion back to Men. I don't like the trivialisation of the ad, but the #MeToo and #ToxicMasculinity discussions are important. There has to be a way we can have these discussions where an issue gets addressed fully, without each garden path being followed.

Peter:
Ok, but that has to work both ways. We need to be softer on boys, but we also need to be harder on girls. Sometimes you do need a bit of grit to push through, rather than a cuddle. I have seen too many examples where when life gets hard, people opt out. Life is hard. For the people at the top, life is often awful in many ways. Make the choice sure, but then accept the consequences. The only reason they do it is because of the Kudos we often attach to people able to be "Toxic". I don't buy this Choice stuff. You can't have everything. Choice sometimes requires a partnership with someone else who will do the stuff you aren't prepared to do. If you want to Yin, someone has to Yang. Someone has to take out the Garbage. Someone has to fix the toilet.



Rachel:
Sure, but it sounds like you aren't acknowledging the problems. You have jumped directly to why men have it hard. Men have always had the platform. Maybe it is time that we focused the attention elsewhere.

Peter:
I am not Men. I am Peter. Half my ancestors are women. A big chunk of the reason things stay the way they are, is because women are half the parents, and want them to stay the way they are. I don't dispute the problems. I just don't think the public discussion is very nuanced. A lot of people who feel differently about this would rather just crack on with stuff that needs doing than make a lot of noise about it in public. It seems some people choose to be activists, and some people choose to take action.

Tracy:
We can at least be grateful that we are at this messy stage of the discussion, and action is being taken. We are also 50/50 committed to a solution, as you say. Still not sure I like Corporates triggering the chat, but maybe it is a positive that the discussion follows.

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