You don't have to commit a crime to enjoy the right to remain silent. Two urges I am working hard on are my "Righteous Indignation" and my "Drama Instinct". I have always been relatively easy to get a rise out of. Looking at the wrongs in the world makes my blood boil. A "Choose Me Lord" religious response to putting myself in the way of injustice. The kind of guy that would have made an easy recruit for the Crusaders or the Saracens depending on where I happened to be born. That has always made me good value tease. My Drama Instinct is the same as most people's too. The less meaningful stuff on the edges that makes more noise, gets a disproportionate amount of my attention. The boring, ordinary, beautiful bits of life often get missed.
Kev:
It does seem like that is a more general challenge than a Trev challenge... but not for everyone. There are a lot of people who just crack on with things without making much fuss about it. "A little less conversation, a little more action please" style organising and doing. Isn't that the point of a Liberal Democracy? You don't have to actually waste any time convincing people of anything. Unless you actually plan on committing a crime, you just need to get willing people, with the skills you need, and do the job. Part of the problem with "The People" getting power from Rulers is they then expect the Representatives to do a better job *for* them than the Rulers. The point is that they have the power. The point is to get the Rulers out of the way, and get on with it.
Sarah:
It depends where you are in the world. Not everyone, everywhere, enjoys these freedoms you are talking about. The fight is not over. Even in Rich countries, there is a surprising level of poverty. The poverty looks different. The social relations look different. It isn't as simple as saying "just crack on with it". You'll probably find that the people who believe that, and have the nature to do it, have can-do cultures and mentors and social networks. It is very easy from the outside to think of what you would do in someone else's situation. Except, if you were in their situation... you wouldn't be having the same thoughts. You may not even know what is on the menu.
Rebecca:
You are right about the differences between different places. I find that a useful way to open up the questions that are swallowing us. I was a car wash in the UK yesterday. It was run by about 20 presumably Eastern European people. They descended on the cars and the whole process took only a few minutes. It was incredible to watch. I kept wondering what the reaction to this scene would be in South Africa. In SA, there is a lot of "fake work". Because of the structural unemployment, a lot of people do jobs which basically just kill time. Since time is an easy unit to pay someone by, and the more time the job takes the more you get paid.
Paul:
That has caused tensions in and of itself. My experience is that immigrants, unlike some of the struggling local people, always work harder. They have a sense that no one owes them anything. They don't expect the state to provide for them as one of "The People" and so they graft. Most people don't want to leave their homes. They have to leave people behind. They go somewhere else in search of a better life, and with a sense of purpose. They are then outside their context. Whatever it was that was holding them back. That doesn't necessarily solve the issue for all the people still struggling. A lot of Eastern Europeans thought the opening up of Europe would lead to their countries becoming like the UK and Germany. Instead "The People" went there.
Peter:
This talk of Entitlement makes me feel very uncomfortable though. The most entitled people I meet are normally the wealthiest. They strongly believe that their success is through their own hard work, completely ignoring the massive investment they have normally had put into them. I have met so many people who talk about how they messed around at school. How they were naughty little scallywags. Then they went travelling or did something fun. Maybe picked up the odd bar job or whatever their English gave them access to. Then they suddenly decide to take life seriously, and doors open left, right, and centre. Even the ones who work hard from the start genuinely believe that their success is self-earned. Because they worked hard. As if people in poverty aren't working hard.
Norman:
The point seems to be that shouting about that Entitlement doesn't seem to make much of a difference? Does it actually change behaviours? These arguments are often among Champagne Socialists and Laissez-Faire Capitalists who both come from the same schools and whose lives don't actually reflect their convictions. It's just a public debate club. As it has become easier for anyone and everyone to have a voice, so the fringes have gained much more control of the conversation. They tend to detract from the people organising, building consensus, mediating, compromising, and all that other messy stuff that doesn't make for something that will get heaps of likes and retweets.
Amanda:
I would like to see more storytelling. Case studies in a "Humans of... " format where we start spreading real, practical, how-tos of options that people have. Bring these abstract debates down to the grassroots of how they affect real people's lives. Ideas and arguments are too big. We need to think smaller. Add back humanity into the conversation. I love Dollar Street from Gapminder. It shows real people's lives across the world. What they wear. Where they sleep. What they eat. How they eat. These are the real questions we should be asking. We get lost in all this ideological stuff. We need to be grounded in the realities of the stories of actual people. Not hand wavy The Peoples.
Mitch:
You are assuming people actually want a solution. I think most love the Drama. They are not actually looking for a solution. They love it when they find a troll as much as the troll loves finding them. I have seen really nice people I know in real life being complete gutter-dwellers online. Foaming at the mouth at people who probably think a lot like them. We love an enemy. Only a few years ago in the UK, everyone was moaning because of the sameness of politicians. You'll get the moaners, and you'll get the doers. The doers will have to drag the moaners along. That is just the way it is.
Trev:
Silence and action are powerful. I still think we need to engage in conversation. The destructive voices can't be allowed to grow like weeds. Equally, giving them a louder voice by over-reacting doesn't seem to be helpful either. I like the idea of a Daily Practice. Regularly being able to step back and ask what small actions are being taken? What is being built? What matters to us? What are the unintended consequences of our actions? It would be great if the conversation could shift to regularly improved questions. At the moment a lot of us seem to be coming at it aggressively with pre-packaged answers. More gaps. More silence. More questions. Less noise.
[Kev, Sarah, Rebecca, Paul, Peter, Norman, Amanda, Mitch are fictional]
Kev:
It does seem like that is a more general challenge than a Trev challenge... but not for everyone. There are a lot of people who just crack on with things without making much fuss about it. "A little less conversation, a little more action please" style organising and doing. Isn't that the point of a Liberal Democracy? You don't have to actually waste any time convincing people of anything. Unless you actually plan on committing a crime, you just need to get willing people, with the skills you need, and do the job. Part of the problem with "The People" getting power from Rulers is they then expect the Representatives to do a better job *for* them than the Rulers. The point is that they have the power. The point is to get the Rulers out of the way, and get on with it.
Sarah:
It depends where you are in the world. Not everyone, everywhere, enjoys these freedoms you are talking about. The fight is not over. Even in Rich countries, there is a surprising level of poverty. The poverty looks different. The social relations look different. It isn't as simple as saying "just crack on with it". You'll probably find that the people who believe that, and have the nature to do it, have can-do cultures and mentors and social networks. It is very easy from the outside to think of what you would do in someone else's situation. Except, if you were in their situation... you wouldn't be having the same thoughts. You may not even know what is on the menu.
Rebecca:
You are right about the differences between different places. I find that a useful way to open up the questions that are swallowing us. I was a car wash in the UK yesterday. It was run by about 20 presumably Eastern European people. They descended on the cars and the whole process took only a few minutes. It was incredible to watch. I kept wondering what the reaction to this scene would be in South Africa. In SA, there is a lot of "fake work". Because of the structural unemployment, a lot of people do jobs which basically just kill time. Since time is an easy unit to pay someone by, and the more time the job takes the more you get paid.
Paul:
That has caused tensions in and of itself. My experience is that immigrants, unlike some of the struggling local people, always work harder. They have a sense that no one owes them anything. They don't expect the state to provide for them as one of "The People" and so they graft. Most people don't want to leave their homes. They have to leave people behind. They go somewhere else in search of a better life, and with a sense of purpose. They are then outside their context. Whatever it was that was holding them back. That doesn't necessarily solve the issue for all the people still struggling. A lot of Eastern Europeans thought the opening up of Europe would lead to their countries becoming like the UK and Germany. Instead "The People" went there.
Peter:
This talk of Entitlement makes me feel very uncomfortable though. The most entitled people I meet are normally the wealthiest. They strongly believe that their success is through their own hard work, completely ignoring the massive investment they have normally had put into them. I have met so many people who talk about how they messed around at school. How they were naughty little scallywags. Then they went travelling or did something fun. Maybe picked up the odd bar job or whatever their English gave them access to. Then they suddenly decide to take life seriously, and doors open left, right, and centre. Even the ones who work hard from the start genuinely believe that their success is self-earned. Because they worked hard. As if people in poverty aren't working hard.
Norman:
The point seems to be that shouting about that Entitlement doesn't seem to make much of a difference? Does it actually change behaviours? These arguments are often among Champagne Socialists and Laissez-Faire Capitalists who both come from the same schools and whose lives don't actually reflect their convictions. It's just a public debate club. As it has become easier for anyone and everyone to have a voice, so the fringes have gained much more control of the conversation. They tend to detract from the people organising, building consensus, mediating, compromising, and all that other messy stuff that doesn't make for something that will get heaps of likes and retweets.
Amanda:
I would like to see more storytelling. Case studies in a "Humans of... " format where we start spreading real, practical, how-tos of options that people have. Bring these abstract debates down to the grassroots of how they affect real people's lives. Ideas and arguments are too big. We need to think smaller. Add back humanity into the conversation. I love Dollar Street from Gapminder. It shows real people's lives across the world. What they wear. Where they sleep. What they eat. How they eat. These are the real questions we should be asking. We get lost in all this ideological stuff. We need to be grounded in the realities of the stories of actual people. Not hand wavy The Peoples.
Mitch:
You are assuming people actually want a solution. I think most love the Drama. They are not actually looking for a solution. They love it when they find a troll as much as the troll loves finding them. I have seen really nice people I know in real life being complete gutter-dwellers online. Foaming at the mouth at people who probably think a lot like them. We love an enemy. Only a few years ago in the UK, everyone was moaning because of the sameness of politicians. You'll get the moaners, and you'll get the doers. The doers will have to drag the moaners along. That is just the way it is.
Trev:
Silence and action are powerful. I still think we need to engage in conversation. The destructive voices can't be allowed to grow like weeds. Equally, giving them a louder voice by over-reacting doesn't seem to be helpful either. I like the idea of a Daily Practice. Regularly being able to step back and ask what small actions are being taken? What is being built? What matters to us? What are the unintended consequences of our actions? It would be great if the conversation could shift to regularly improved questions. At the moment a lot of us seem to be coming at it aggressively with pre-packaged answers. More gaps. More silence. More questions. Less noise.
[Kev, Sarah, Rebecca, Paul, Peter, Norman, Amanda, Mitch are fictional]
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