Stuart's post called a `Siren's Song' makes the valid point that the two best ways to approach trying to find the truth are
1) With Humility
2) With Skepticism about your established belief's truths
(2) doesn't mean you have to discard what you believe, but rather that you shouldn't cling to it to the point that you can not accept that you MIGHT be wrong.
A lot of the discussion we have been having is around the necessity of making things legal or illegal or whether social custom can deal with that, and only the absolute basics should be made illegal.
The thing is, we have to develop or accept a social code that works then. The argument is that you can have multiple social codes, and people can move freely between them.
If I accept that... and I probably do, you then have to figure out exactly what that social code should be.
So... the first thing is to work out
1) What those basic laws should be
2) Then develop your own social code
So, reframing the question we have been chatting about
Should Prostitution be legal? I don't think it fits into category 1. But my gut still makes me feel that the social code should still restrict it. Why does my gut tell me that?
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I mean much more then that by point to. Not just to accept that we might be wrong, but that we are likely to be wrong.
I don't really think it's possible to sit down and come up with this social code. More like tinkering with what we (or other people) alreaduy have. I think it needs to evolve gradually.
Our guts have often "told us" that we're now ashamed of, things like interracial marriage being wrong. How far should we go to find reasons justifying our gut feelings?
Is your gut feeling about porn the same?
ok... I like that better.
That kind of makes the two principles become one since thinking you are probably wrong is a rather humble stance.
1) I am probably wrong
It also makes you give more weight to the opinion of others too. Thing is though, they are probably wrong too.
So...
1) I am probably wrong
2) You are probably wrong too
Then, there is almost definitely someone else who is more correct (but still wrong) than both of you.
So
1) I am probably wrong
2) You are probably wrong
3) Even if we agree, there is most likely someone else out there that is closer to the truth than both of us.
But this may inspire apathy since you may think, why bother?
So...
1) I am probably wrong
2) You are probably wrong
3) There is someone else out there that is closer to the truth than both of us.
4) It is worth trying
I don't think we should approach it from justifying our guts. I think we should try shoot holes in our guts, but that for want of an alternative, our guts are probably still the best voice to listen to.
With the proviso that we are probably wrong.
My gut feeling about porn is not the same as my gut feeling about prostitution.
I see porn in a similar light to booze, gambling, sport, work and other things that need to be balanced. Obsession with porn can be very distructive... but the line between what is porn, what is erotic art, what is art, what is fetish, what is dangerous is unclear.
I think we need to try figure our where our emotional maturity lies, and how capable we are of dealing with things. If we are concerned that we may not be able to deal with certain things, putting up walls or avoiding things is maybe the answer.
Example... someone who has a tendancy to alcoholism is probably better off not drinking at all. Someone who is unable to have platonic friendships because they see women purely as sex objects shouldn't have female friends. Someone who sinks themselves into Gambling Debt should probably not gamble.
But this doesn't make any of the vices wrong, they can be very `right' in terms of creating happiness.
I guess my gut with prostitution is a personal feeling that I don't know if I would have the emotional maturity to control that kind of thing. Plus, my personal moral code sans rationality objects... for me. It also objects where other people are in relationships where one partner uses prostitutes against the other partners will. I don't think it is the same as porn, for the reason that my `gut' tells me that if one partner objects to porn, it still doesn't matter if the other person uses it unless it starts to become an obsession and affects the relationship. With prostitution, my gut still objects to even once off/occasional use of prostitutes even if it doesn't explicitly affect the relationship.
Maybe that gut is inconsistent...
And I am probably wrong ;-)
I'm sorry I sent you down such a long road when I didn't explain myself properly. What I meant was that most porn involves paid sex, this is what I was asking if it was wrong.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. I also doubt that regular use of prostitutes could be part of a happy healthy life for most people, but I'm I wouldn't rule it out for some, I'm not judgemental.
I knew that was the trap you were setting. And I see the potential inconsistency.
I don't have a problem with paid sex or acting with sex involved, as long as the people's partners consent as well.
Gut feeling here is that consensual Sex isn't just between two people, but there partners as well. Obscure I know. But I think if you want to have sex with someone else it should require your partners explicit consent. Otherwise they are not really your partner.
I also think even with `consent' things get tricky.
As for porn... it may not be paid. Amateurs through the net and cell phone cameras are now more able to `share their encounters' and do so for free.
This is the kind of discussion that makes you want to not write it on the web where everyone can see your opinion. There are lots of social taboos where people don't talk about their REAL opinion. Sex is the biggest source of those taboos.
And you Mr Torr... since you put me on the spot...
Do you equate porn to prostitution... i.e. something you wouldn't use yourself but don't think is wrong?
I don't feel like I put you on the spot. You've written a lot about your discomfort over prostitution and I was wondering if you felt the same way about porn.
I don't think consuming porn is the same as paying for sex, though I don't see the difference between being a porn star and a prostitute.
I think there is a slightly difference. Same ball park but different.
Porn Stars are `actors' (loosest definition) being filmed and trying to create a spectable. They can also choose their partners. In fact, porn stars can be couples who are completely faithful.
Prostitutes I would imagine take far bigger risks. They often would not know their clients.
Not with you I'm afraid.
Prostitutes can choose who they sleep with. Contract could just as easily specify that an actor could not.
1) You assume the `actors' are not freelance in the same way other actors are. Actors audition for roles, they are not necessarily contracted. I imagine some are, but in a world with legal prostitution so would some prosititutes. I would imagine there is a smaller community of actors and in the main, professionals work with other professionals. I don't deny that some porn stars are essentially prositutes. I would have the same `gut' feeling against being a porn star as using or being a prostitute.
I understood your question to mean did I have the same `gut feeling' against `using' porn, since I don't believe I have at any stage claimed that I think prostitution is wrong.
I think the key difference between the two is that porn has `side users'... and No, I don't think that side use is the same as direct use of a prostitute.
Although, like drinking and gambling, it can become a problem if it becomes an obsession.
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