I grew up in Apartheid South Africa as it was gasping for its last breaths, and as the new South Africa was filling its lungs for the first times with a new cry. The road from Durban to Pietermaritzburg winds through Kwa-Zulu Natal with what were the white suburbs on either side, and the separated suburbs a little further back. One of my defining experiences was being taken to Umlazi as a 17-year-old. A place of almost half a million people, hidden behind a hill I never ventured beyond. There, but not. Gradually my high-school class filled with people from outside my bubble. I finished school when South Africa was just about to turn 4-years-old. That was my first experience of Global Apartheid. Seeing that the sea is just a big hill.
Simon:
It must have been weird living in such a backward society. I grew up in England, which is a proudly liberal. Britain has an awkward history too, but we are able to have a good laugh about it. It feels good to be proud of my country. It must be horrible to not be proud of your country. We have been on the right side of history in the end. You need to let go of your history in the same way. You shouldn't let Apartheid define you. It wasn't your fault, in the same way as England's history isn't my fault. I can be proud of the positives now, and move forward in a society that is equal.
Trev:
That doesn't sit well with me. I am proud of South Africa, but not in a Nationalistic way. When we first got the new South Africa flag, I was all-in for the story of Nation Building. I have lots of pictures of myself with a "Y-Front on my face" as the Barmy Army would put it. I was also one of the loudest singing the love child of Nkosi-Sikeleli iAfrika and Die Stem. When I got to the UK for the first time (a gap between school and uni), I was actually pretty annoying in my "South Africa is so amazing"ness. The problem is, it feels very much like the feeling I had growing up if you just focus on the positives. Life in a police state is backward, but all you know.
Marco:
I don't know. That's all too much like lecturing to me. Life is too short. I have enough problems of my own to focus on. What exactly is the point of carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders? A Liberal Society lets everyone just crack on with what is important to them. There is nothing holding anyone back. It is all about getting the right mindset. If you are constantly looking for excuses, you will find them. No one owes you anything. If you want something work for it. That applies to everyone else too, so I don't see why I (or you) need to feel any responsibility for sorting other people's issues out.
Trev:
I do think mindset is important. Except our mindsets aren't our own. We are part of a community, and we don't just move as individuals. It isn't as simple as snapping out of it. I don't think we necessarily recognise just how valuable being part of a set up that lets you focus on your own problems is. I love the UK. It is an awesome place, but I don't think there is sufficient reflection on issues like Colonialism and Imperialism. I don't think there is sufficient discussion about how we empower people to have similar opportunities to take advantage of the progress the world has seen. Even within the UK, I don't think it is as meritocratic as those who have succeeded believe. It is easy to say we get what we deserve, when we have succeeded.
Andrew:
Would you like some cheese with your whine? Colonialism and Imperialism happened a long time ago. Anyway, I wasn't part of all that. My parents and their parents also struggled. England was colonised by the Vikings, the French, and various European Monarchs had their turn. William of Orange was Dutch, and the latest lot are German and Greek. Russia was colonised by the Mongols. The Slavs, where we get the word Slave, were as white as Prince George's bottom. Look at Singapore and Rwanda... if you stop making excuses and start taking responsibility, your situation changes. Whine just gives you a hangover. At what point do we get to move on?
Trev:
I do think there is a balance. Yes, responsibility is important but some of the obstacles are structural. It is very hard to see why it is hard to break out of those restraints when you aren't under them. Particularly us as white, English-Speaking, males, who went to decent schools, and were part of strong communities. The world is largely set up for us. Even if we stumble, and go rogue for a while. We'll have buddies and family to help us up again. It can't all just be about sorting ourselves out. There must be some sort of shared responsibility.
Arthur:
There is shared responsibility. It's called tax. It's called the Welfare State. At some point people need to wipe their own bottoms. I am so tired of being told I can't have an opinion on anything because of my genitalia and lack of tan. I am also tired of being told I don't care, or am evil, because I just want to get a job I am good at, build a life I want to live, do things I enjoy, and pay a truck ton of tax along the way to a state that can help others who don't have the advantages I do. What more can you expect from me?
Trev:
Except taxes are National. It is the Umlazi problem I started with. The world is Global now. In the same way as I grew up where the "Whites Only Areas" were sustained by Black Labour. Building borders and sinking boats is just a way of creating open-air prisons. The UK is a country of migrants. The US is a country of migrants. The EU has a long history of migration. Instanbul, in Turkey, was the capital of the Roman Empire. Alexandria in Egypt, one of the centres of learning. How can we just focus on Nation States? Surely there is a better form of community.
Max:
Because Nation States are the most effective form of Government we have come up with. Because not participating in "Civilising Missions" is the lesson learned from failed Colonialism and Imperialism. Because Free Trade is the best way to let other countries sort themselves out in their own way, in their own time. We haven't exactly had a sterling history of military interventions in imposing ourselves on others. Borders will gradually become more invisible as and when it is safe. You are living in la-la-land if you think it is fine to thrust "progress", whatever that is, on people. Or to expect people to put at risk all they have built up, to let whoever wants to come, in.
Simon:
It must have been weird living in such a backward society. I grew up in England, which is a proudly liberal. Britain has an awkward history too, but we are able to have a good laugh about it. It feels good to be proud of my country. It must be horrible to not be proud of your country. We have been on the right side of history in the end. You need to let go of your history in the same way. You shouldn't let Apartheid define you. It wasn't your fault, in the same way as England's history isn't my fault. I can be proud of the positives now, and move forward in a society that is equal.
Trev:
That doesn't sit well with me. I am proud of South Africa, but not in a Nationalistic way. When we first got the new South Africa flag, I was all-in for the story of Nation Building. I have lots of pictures of myself with a "Y-Front on my face" as the Barmy Army would put it. I was also one of the loudest singing the love child of Nkosi-Sikeleli iAfrika and Die Stem. When I got to the UK for the first time (a gap between school and uni), I was actually pretty annoying in my "South Africa is so amazing"ness. The problem is, it feels very much like the feeling I had growing up if you just focus on the positives. Life in a police state is backward, but all you know.
Marco:
I don't know. That's all too much like lecturing to me. Life is too short. I have enough problems of my own to focus on. What exactly is the point of carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders? A Liberal Society lets everyone just crack on with what is important to them. There is nothing holding anyone back. It is all about getting the right mindset. If you are constantly looking for excuses, you will find them. No one owes you anything. If you want something work for it. That applies to everyone else too, so I don't see why I (or you) need to feel any responsibility for sorting other people's issues out.
Trev:
I do think mindset is important. Except our mindsets aren't our own. We are part of a community, and we don't just move as individuals. It isn't as simple as snapping out of it. I don't think we necessarily recognise just how valuable being part of a set up that lets you focus on your own problems is. I love the UK. It is an awesome place, but I don't think there is sufficient reflection on issues like Colonialism and Imperialism. I don't think there is sufficient discussion about how we empower people to have similar opportunities to take advantage of the progress the world has seen. Even within the UK, I don't think it is as meritocratic as those who have succeeded believe. It is easy to say we get what we deserve, when we have succeeded.
Andrew:
Would you like some cheese with your whine? Colonialism and Imperialism happened a long time ago. Anyway, I wasn't part of all that. My parents and their parents also struggled. England was colonised by the Vikings, the French, and various European Monarchs had their turn. William of Orange was Dutch, and the latest lot are German and Greek. Russia was colonised by the Mongols. The Slavs, where we get the word Slave, were as white as Prince George's bottom. Look at Singapore and Rwanda... if you stop making excuses and start taking responsibility, your situation changes. Whine just gives you a hangover. At what point do we get to move on?
Trev:
I do think there is a balance. Yes, responsibility is important but some of the obstacles are structural. It is very hard to see why it is hard to break out of those restraints when you aren't under them. Particularly us as white, English-Speaking, males, who went to decent schools, and were part of strong communities. The world is largely set up for us. Even if we stumble, and go rogue for a while. We'll have buddies and family to help us up again. It can't all just be about sorting ourselves out. There must be some sort of shared responsibility.
Arthur:
There is shared responsibility. It's called tax. It's called the Welfare State. At some point people need to wipe their own bottoms. I am so tired of being told I can't have an opinion on anything because of my genitalia and lack of tan. I am also tired of being told I don't care, or am evil, because I just want to get a job I am good at, build a life I want to live, do things I enjoy, and pay a truck ton of tax along the way to a state that can help others who don't have the advantages I do. What more can you expect from me?
Trev:
Except taxes are National. It is the Umlazi problem I started with. The world is Global now. In the same way as I grew up where the "Whites Only Areas" were sustained by Black Labour. Building borders and sinking boats is just a way of creating open-air prisons. The UK is a country of migrants. The US is a country of migrants. The EU has a long history of migration. Instanbul, in Turkey, was the capital of the Roman Empire. Alexandria in Egypt, one of the centres of learning. How can we just focus on Nation States? Surely there is a better form of community.
Max:
Because Nation States are the most effective form of Government we have come up with. Because not participating in "Civilising Missions" is the lesson learned from failed Colonialism and Imperialism. Because Free Trade is the best way to let other countries sort themselves out in their own way, in their own time. We haven't exactly had a sterling history of military interventions in imposing ourselves on others. Borders will gradually become more invisible as and when it is safe. You are living in la-la-land if you think it is fine to thrust "progress", whatever that is, on people. Or to expect people to put at risk all they have built up, to let whoever wants to come, in.
[Simon, Marco, Andrew, Arthur, and Max are fictional]
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